Would a Moon made of water pose a threat to Earth during eclipses?
up vote
57
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favorite
Is a moon made entirely of water possible?
Could a planet made completely of water exist?
I was inspired by the above questions to ask the following:
Assume that our current Moon is replaced instantaneously by a moon made entirely of water but of identical mass. This is carried out by an incredibly powerful passing alien who is driving drunk and wants to have a laugh.
Question
Before it had time to evaporate could it act as a lens during solar eclipses and focus the Sun's rays dangerously on Earth? Specifically if it was transparent enough, how could we determine the focal point?
Notes
I know that the focal point of a sphere is somewhat fuzzy but I don't know how this would appear on Earth or how a possible transition between ice/water at different depths and therefore pressures would affect things.
The refractive indices of ice and water are given below. I don't know if they are pressure-sensitive.
Refractive Indices
Water: 1.333
Ice: 1.309
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/MunifHussain.shtml
science-based moons alternate-reality
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show 5 more comments
up vote
57
down vote
favorite
Is a moon made entirely of water possible?
Could a planet made completely of water exist?
I was inspired by the above questions to ask the following:
Assume that our current Moon is replaced instantaneously by a moon made entirely of water but of identical mass. This is carried out by an incredibly powerful passing alien who is driving drunk and wants to have a laugh.
Question
Before it had time to evaporate could it act as a lens during solar eclipses and focus the Sun's rays dangerously on Earth? Specifically if it was transparent enough, how could we determine the focal point?
Notes
I know that the focal point of a sphere is somewhat fuzzy but I don't know how this would appear on Earth or how a possible transition between ice/water at different depths and therefore pressures would affect things.
The refractive indices of ice and water are given below. I don't know if they are pressure-sensitive.
Refractive Indices
Water: 1.333
Ice: 1.309
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/MunifHussain.shtml
science-based moons alternate-reality
38
Drive by drunken god-aliens... Nice. Also: I predict you’re about to be introduced to the wonderful world of exotic ice phases.
– Joe Bloggs
2 days ago
4
I really like this idea. Although I don’t think water will work because of the freezing problems, I’d love to see a question asking about an (artificial) glass-marble-like moon that can cause these same effects.
– Dubukay
2 days ago
4
@JoeBloggs, the Moon isn't big enough. In order to pick up ice VII (the first of the exotics), you need 9*10^22 kg of water, while the Moon is only 7.3*10^22 kg. You're basically going to have a ball of water surrounded by a thin crust of ice.
– Mark
2 days ago
9
You have to admit, a moon made of water would, one way or another, look pretty amazing during an eclipse! Someone should render this. Even if not scientifically, just the fantasy version.
– Fattie
yesterday
8
It's raining moon, hallelujah, it's raining moon!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
up vote
57
down vote
favorite
up vote
57
down vote
favorite
Is a moon made entirely of water possible?
Could a planet made completely of water exist?
I was inspired by the above questions to ask the following:
Assume that our current Moon is replaced instantaneously by a moon made entirely of water but of identical mass. This is carried out by an incredibly powerful passing alien who is driving drunk and wants to have a laugh.
Question
Before it had time to evaporate could it act as a lens during solar eclipses and focus the Sun's rays dangerously on Earth? Specifically if it was transparent enough, how could we determine the focal point?
Notes
I know that the focal point of a sphere is somewhat fuzzy but I don't know how this would appear on Earth or how a possible transition between ice/water at different depths and therefore pressures would affect things.
The refractive indices of ice and water are given below. I don't know if they are pressure-sensitive.
Refractive Indices
Water: 1.333
Ice: 1.309
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/MunifHussain.shtml
science-based moons alternate-reality
Is a moon made entirely of water possible?
Could a planet made completely of water exist?
I was inspired by the above questions to ask the following:
Assume that our current Moon is replaced instantaneously by a moon made entirely of water but of identical mass. This is carried out by an incredibly powerful passing alien who is driving drunk and wants to have a laugh.
Question
Before it had time to evaporate could it act as a lens during solar eclipses and focus the Sun's rays dangerously on Earth? Specifically if it was transparent enough, how could we determine the focal point?
Notes
I know that the focal point of a sphere is somewhat fuzzy but I don't know how this would appear on Earth or how a possible transition between ice/water at different depths and therefore pressures would affect things.
The refractive indices of ice and water are given below. I don't know if they are pressure-sensitive.
Refractive Indices
Water: 1.333
Ice: 1.309
https://hypertextbook.com/facts/2005/MunifHussain.shtml
science-based moons alternate-reality
science-based moons alternate-reality
edited 2 days ago
asked 2 days ago
chasly from UK
8,06634083
8,06634083
38
Drive by drunken god-aliens... Nice. Also: I predict you’re about to be introduced to the wonderful world of exotic ice phases.
– Joe Bloggs
2 days ago
4
I really like this idea. Although I don’t think water will work because of the freezing problems, I’d love to see a question asking about an (artificial) glass-marble-like moon that can cause these same effects.
– Dubukay
2 days ago
4
@JoeBloggs, the Moon isn't big enough. In order to pick up ice VII (the first of the exotics), you need 9*10^22 kg of water, while the Moon is only 7.3*10^22 kg. You're basically going to have a ball of water surrounded by a thin crust of ice.
– Mark
2 days ago
9
You have to admit, a moon made of water would, one way or another, look pretty amazing during an eclipse! Someone should render this. Even if not scientifically, just the fantasy version.
– Fattie
yesterday
8
It's raining moon, hallelujah, it's raining moon!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
38
Drive by drunken god-aliens... Nice. Also: I predict you’re about to be introduced to the wonderful world of exotic ice phases.
– Joe Bloggs
2 days ago
4
I really like this idea. Although I don’t think water will work because of the freezing problems, I’d love to see a question asking about an (artificial) glass-marble-like moon that can cause these same effects.
– Dubukay
2 days ago
4
@JoeBloggs, the Moon isn't big enough. In order to pick up ice VII (the first of the exotics), you need 9*10^22 kg of water, while the Moon is only 7.3*10^22 kg. You're basically going to have a ball of water surrounded by a thin crust of ice.
– Mark
2 days ago
9
You have to admit, a moon made of water would, one way or another, look pretty amazing during an eclipse! Someone should render this. Even if not scientifically, just the fantasy version.
– Fattie
yesterday
8
It's raining moon, hallelujah, it's raining moon!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
38
38
Drive by drunken god-aliens... Nice. Also: I predict you’re about to be introduced to the wonderful world of exotic ice phases.
– Joe Bloggs
2 days ago
Drive by drunken god-aliens... Nice. Also: I predict you’re about to be introduced to the wonderful world of exotic ice phases.
– Joe Bloggs
2 days ago
4
4
I really like this idea. Although I don’t think water will work because of the freezing problems, I’d love to see a question asking about an (artificial) glass-marble-like moon that can cause these same effects.
– Dubukay
2 days ago
I really like this idea. Although I don’t think water will work because of the freezing problems, I’d love to see a question asking about an (artificial) glass-marble-like moon that can cause these same effects.
– Dubukay
2 days ago
4
4
@JoeBloggs, the Moon isn't big enough. In order to pick up ice VII (the first of the exotics), you need 9*10^22 kg of water, while the Moon is only 7.3*10^22 kg. You're basically going to have a ball of water surrounded by a thin crust of ice.
– Mark
2 days ago
@JoeBloggs, the Moon isn't big enough. In order to pick up ice VII (the first of the exotics), you need 9*10^22 kg of water, while the Moon is only 7.3*10^22 kg. You're basically going to have a ball of water surrounded by a thin crust of ice.
– Mark
2 days ago
9
9
You have to admit, a moon made of water would, one way or another, look pretty amazing during an eclipse! Someone should render this. Even if not scientifically, just the fantasy version.
– Fattie
yesterday
You have to admit, a moon made of water would, one way or another, look pretty amazing during an eclipse! Someone should render this. Even if not scientifically, just the fantasy version.
– Fattie
yesterday
8
8
It's raining moon, hallelujah, it's raining moon!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
It's raining moon, hallelujah, it's raining moon!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday
|
show 5 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
up vote
119
down vote
accepted
The results are quite boring I'm afraid.
The surface would freeze and turn a colour similar to many of the icy moons we see on our solar system. That is normally a sort of off-white or dirty grey.
That depth of water is effectively opaque so you wouldn't see any lensing effects. (Think how dark it is at the bottom of our oceans for example, passing through our moon is much further than that). Pure water is not very opaque in the visible spectrum but even there you have a penetration depth of less than 100m. In other words the light falls to 37% of its original brightness every 100m it passes through.
If the mass is the same then gravity, tides, etc would not change.
Rock tends to be around 5 times as dense as water, so you would expect the moon to be a little larger and reflectivity is better so moonlit nights would be brighter.
2
I wonder if there are any lensing effects right at the junction between far and near faces of the moon during an eclipse of the sun. By simple geometry there must be a ring all the way round where the thickness of ice to be traversed is negligible.
– chasly from UK
2 days ago
10
Sadly, I think Tim B's answer is going to be the correct & only answer. Think about it this way: if you draw a line from a point on the east coast of Australia, through the depths of the Ocean and out the other side & through space to the pre-dawn Sun, you can't see the Sun through the great distance of water. The world before sunrise is dark and the water is dark. Your watery moon will be the same.
– elemtilas
2 days ago
1
@chaslyfromUK Your edit looks good, and didn't invalidate anything thanks :) I had already ignored the duplicate bit and just focused on the new thing anyway
– Tim B♦
2 days ago
12
Another additional point: initially the moonlit nights would be much brighter, perhaps about a hundred times brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts.
– Nathaniel
2 days ago
1
Gas giants are opaque, too. There's just no way around this - at planetary scales, everything is opaque. Besides, the Moon is far too light to hold onto that vapor for too long.
– void_ptr
15 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
72
down vote
Sorry, no spectacular death ray occurs for a number of reasons.
1. The focal point is in the wrong spot.
The mass of the moon is about 7.3 × 1022 kilograms. The density of water is 997 kg/m3. Now assuming the entire moon is liquid water (which is itself a dubious assumption), that yields a volume of water of:
$$ {7.3 times 10^{22}:mathrm {kg} over 997 :mathrm{kg/m^3} }
= 7.3 times 10^{19} :mathrm m^3 $$
Or, a sphere with a radius of 2.6 × 106 meters. (For comparison, our current Moon has a radius of 1.7 × 106 meters.)
The focal length of a ball lens is:
$$ f = {RN over 2(N-1)} $$
where $R$ is the radius, and $N$ the index of refraction. So for our water moon lens,
$$ {(2.6 times 10^{6}) 1.333 over 2(1.333 - 1) } = 5.2 times 10^6 :mathrm m$$
The Moon is about 384 × 106 meters away from Earth, so the focal point isn't anywhere near Earth's surface. At worst, we have a hazard to future lunar missions.
2. At these sizes, water is effectively opaque.
OK, so the focus in in the wrong spot, but what if we ignore that?
Pure liquid water is pretty clear at visible wavelengths, with an attenuation coefficient on the order of 10-2 m-1. That means the transmitted light is reduced by a factor of 1/e for every 100 meters of water. But compared to the size of the Moon, 100 meters is basically nothing, so very little light gets through.
Furthermore, the attenuation coefficient is much higher for ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths, where much of the solar energy is.
3. The Moon isn't big enough to make a death ray lens.
So water is effectively opaque at lunar sizes, so what if we ignore that also? What if the Moon is replaced with some kind of matter which is completely transparent, and somehow has optical properties which allow it to focus all the light from the sun on to a small area on Earth?
At first glance this would be pretty bad: about 1.3 × 1016 watts of solar power hits the Moon, and our less-dense water Moon is a little bigger, so intercepts even more power. Concentrating that power in a small area would be Really Bad.
But it's not possible to build such an optical system, no matter what kind of matter replaces the Moon, without significantly increasing the angular diameter of the Moon.
Pretend you're an ant. In the absence of any kind of lens, the angular diameter of the Sun is pretty small: 0.53°. Although the Sun is incredibly hot, most directions are the relatively cool "not Sun", and so your total energy exposure, integrated over all possible directions, is manageable.
Now some kid parks a magnifying lens over you. It's huge, covering much of the sky, with an angular diameter of maybe 90°. In almost every direction you look, you see the Sun. From your perspective, it's as if someone put about 32,000 more suns in the sky, and now the sky is mostly "Sun". Integrated over all possible directions your energy exposure is huge, and you promptly burst into flames.
The trouble is the angular diameter of the Moon-lens-death-ray isn't much bigger than the angular diameter of the Sun. The ordinary Sun and Moon have approximately the same angular diameter, and replacing the Moon with less-dense water increased the solid angle by a factor of 2.3. Certainly enough to be noticeably warmer, but not catastrophically so over the short duration of an eclipse.
It's counterintuitive but true. Try to burn an ant with any optical system which to the ant looks no bigger than the Sun. You can't do it: it would violate the conservation of etendue. (Other references: 1 2)
To present a real threat to Earth's surface, the aliens would have to increase the angular diameter of the Moon. That means one or more of:
- moving it closer
- adding more mass
- making it less dense
- making it non-spherical
3
So well written !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– Fattie
yesterday
1
nice to have all aspects of the problem in a single answer!
– szulat
yesterday
3
@chaslyfromUK This answer goes into far more detail than mine and covers things mine does not, please feel free to change the tick mark. It earned it :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
Thanks Tim B. It's a toss-up but I'l go with Occam's Razor this time and stick with you. However Phil's answer is a gem because it answers all the 'what if' questions that go along with my OP.
– chasly from UK
yesterday
2
It's OK, maybe I'll get a populist badge :)
– Phil Frost
22 hours ago
|
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up vote
15
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Note: this answer incorrectly assumes the lens-moon diameter stays unchanged. As noted by Kelly Thomas, the question asks for the same mass, not diameter (so the water moon is going to be bigger because of its lower density). I'm keeping this answer anyway, because the equal moon and sun apparent diameter leads to an unexpected conclusion.
Fun science fact: even the focused sunlight would not be much more dangerous than normal sunlight!
Why? Because of the etendue
(TL;DR: the moon is small and far away)
It turns out that it is impossible to increase the surface brightness of the object using purely optical devices. Make the moon a perfect lens, not just a water sphere but finely tuned optical system focused on the Earth and passing 100% of the light without any losses and.. nothing spectacular happens.
So how come we can burn things with the magnifying glass? Isn't the focused light more powerful? Surprisingly, it is not! From the "target" perspective, we are replacing the sun with the magnifying glass. Both have the same surface brightness (very bright!) but the magnifying glass appears much bigger because it is so close, so obviously even having the same surface brightness, much more energy is delivered. But in the lens-moon scenario, the apparent sizes of the moon and sun are nearly equal. The moon-lens would at best just appear to be as bright as the sun and deliver the same amount of energy as the sun itself.
Another way to look at this apparent paradox is that no lens (not even an nonexistant idealized lens) can focus 100% of the light coming from the light source into a single point. It can focus 100% of the light coming from some location at the light source to a point, and focus another 100% coming from another location into another point, and so on. In other words, a lens creates the image of the light source and this image has some finite size, spreading the light across the area.
Now there is a little extra detail - for some configurations you might be able to see the lens-moon and the sun simultaneously and this would indeed double the energy flux. But not for a "regular" lens, where you can be in focus only when the light source is precisely behind the lens (so it is obscured and you cannot see the lens and the source at the same time).
And what if the aliens can change the apparent lens diameter, by making it more flat and less spherical, and/or by moving it closer to the Earth? Then, of course, such lens can focus more light than the sun and become very dangerous.
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
yesterday
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up vote
11
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As others have said, the newly water-based moon would not refract sunlight to make any sort of lens. It's just too thick.
However, it won't turn into an ice moon, like Europa, either. Ice moons don't form within a star's goldilocks zone.
The first change that anyone will notice is the size. Using Phil's math in his answer, we get a radius of 2,600 km, compared to its current radius of 1,737 km. While it will have significantly higher volume, we care more about the visible area, which we get with a simple pi * r squared... just the area of the circle.
The moon's current visible area is 9,480,000 sq km. With a radius of 2,600 km, the visible area jumps to a spectacular 21,200,000 sq km.
So with nothing else changing, you get about a 3-fold increase in the apparent size of the moon.
Soon after being turned to water, the surface of our moon would start evaporating, because water just doesn't exist in a vacuum. It will create its own atmosphere in short order, made entirely of water vapor. This will regulate the lunar temperature... The night side of the moon will certainly freeze over, but wouldn't enter the deep-freeze that it currently does, plunging down to minus 173c. Instead, it will likely only go as far down as minus 30c.
The day side of the moon will be a different matter altogether. While the Earth has gone through a few snowball periods, it also rotates much faster than the moon does, so the sun doesn't have enough time to bear down on one section of snowball Earth. While ice does have a high albedo, so reflects the light instead of absorbing it as heat, it isn't a perfect mirror. The ice will melt, and water has a much lower albedo... The newly melted water will absorb the light greedily, and pass it on to any nearby ice in the form of heat, making a very distinct melt line that would be very obvious at the different points in the moon's phases. While the Earth was barely able to keep its snowball status with an average of 12 hours of sunlight per day, the moon has to deal with 57.5 hour long periods of daylight.
So the moon will have a vast liquid surface on its day side, with a billowing, water vapor atmosphere creating clouds like Earth has never seen. The average albedo of stratocumulus clouds is .65. We can imagine that much of the moon would be covered in these clouds.
The moon's current albedo is .12. The lux received on Earth from a full moon is about a quarter lumen per square meter. With 3 times the surface area, and 5 times the albedo, the moon will appear 15 times as bright, or about 3.75 lumens per square meter.
It certainly would not create a death ray, but the change would be very obvious, very quickly. (There will also be no more annular solar eclipses; only total eclipses... but that wasn't part of the question.)
Hmm, I'm genuinely not sure on this - I've upvoted but there is a lot of complicated stuff going on with pressure and gravity and solar wind so you could end up with anything from a frozen ice moon to a water atmosphere. Our atmosphere is mostly made up of gasses that are gas at room temperature. The boiling point of water does drop as pressure drops (until it reaches the melting point and you get sublimation) but I've no idea whether the end result would actually be a significant atmosphere or not. Maybe one for another question :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
An all water moon most definitely will not last long... Maybe as short as only a few centuries, depending on how the decrease in density affects its gravity field and how strongly the solar wind would strip its atmosphere. Once the solar wind starts stripping the atmosphere away, humans will be less worried about the moon and would be more worried about vastly increasing sea levels.
– Ghedipunk
18 hours ago
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up vote
5
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once it's an icy moon, the albedo would increase from 0.12 to 0.8 or something, which would cause light pollution disrupting sleep cycles biosphere-wide. with the diameter increase that's 20x more light
or like Nathaniel said it, the moonlit nights would be much brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
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5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
119
down vote
accepted
The results are quite boring I'm afraid.
The surface would freeze and turn a colour similar to many of the icy moons we see on our solar system. That is normally a sort of off-white or dirty grey.
That depth of water is effectively opaque so you wouldn't see any lensing effects. (Think how dark it is at the bottom of our oceans for example, passing through our moon is much further than that). Pure water is not very opaque in the visible spectrum but even there you have a penetration depth of less than 100m. In other words the light falls to 37% of its original brightness every 100m it passes through.
If the mass is the same then gravity, tides, etc would not change.
Rock tends to be around 5 times as dense as water, so you would expect the moon to be a little larger and reflectivity is better so moonlit nights would be brighter.
2
I wonder if there are any lensing effects right at the junction between far and near faces of the moon during an eclipse of the sun. By simple geometry there must be a ring all the way round where the thickness of ice to be traversed is negligible.
– chasly from UK
2 days ago
10
Sadly, I think Tim B's answer is going to be the correct & only answer. Think about it this way: if you draw a line from a point on the east coast of Australia, through the depths of the Ocean and out the other side & through space to the pre-dawn Sun, you can't see the Sun through the great distance of water. The world before sunrise is dark and the water is dark. Your watery moon will be the same.
– elemtilas
2 days ago
1
@chaslyfromUK Your edit looks good, and didn't invalidate anything thanks :) I had already ignored the duplicate bit and just focused on the new thing anyway
– Tim B♦
2 days ago
12
Another additional point: initially the moonlit nights would be much brighter, perhaps about a hundred times brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts.
– Nathaniel
2 days ago
1
Gas giants are opaque, too. There's just no way around this - at planetary scales, everything is opaque. Besides, the Moon is far too light to hold onto that vapor for too long.
– void_ptr
15 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
119
down vote
accepted
The results are quite boring I'm afraid.
The surface would freeze and turn a colour similar to many of the icy moons we see on our solar system. That is normally a sort of off-white or dirty grey.
That depth of water is effectively opaque so you wouldn't see any lensing effects. (Think how dark it is at the bottom of our oceans for example, passing through our moon is much further than that). Pure water is not very opaque in the visible spectrum but even there you have a penetration depth of less than 100m. In other words the light falls to 37% of its original brightness every 100m it passes through.
If the mass is the same then gravity, tides, etc would not change.
Rock tends to be around 5 times as dense as water, so you would expect the moon to be a little larger and reflectivity is better so moonlit nights would be brighter.
2
I wonder if there are any lensing effects right at the junction between far and near faces of the moon during an eclipse of the sun. By simple geometry there must be a ring all the way round where the thickness of ice to be traversed is negligible.
– chasly from UK
2 days ago
10
Sadly, I think Tim B's answer is going to be the correct & only answer. Think about it this way: if you draw a line from a point on the east coast of Australia, through the depths of the Ocean and out the other side & through space to the pre-dawn Sun, you can't see the Sun through the great distance of water. The world before sunrise is dark and the water is dark. Your watery moon will be the same.
– elemtilas
2 days ago
1
@chaslyfromUK Your edit looks good, and didn't invalidate anything thanks :) I had already ignored the duplicate bit and just focused on the new thing anyway
– Tim B♦
2 days ago
12
Another additional point: initially the moonlit nights would be much brighter, perhaps about a hundred times brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts.
– Nathaniel
2 days ago
1
Gas giants are opaque, too. There's just no way around this - at planetary scales, everything is opaque. Besides, the Moon is far too light to hold onto that vapor for too long.
– void_ptr
15 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
119
down vote
accepted
up vote
119
down vote
accepted
The results are quite boring I'm afraid.
The surface would freeze and turn a colour similar to many of the icy moons we see on our solar system. That is normally a sort of off-white or dirty grey.
That depth of water is effectively opaque so you wouldn't see any lensing effects. (Think how dark it is at the bottom of our oceans for example, passing through our moon is much further than that). Pure water is not very opaque in the visible spectrum but even there you have a penetration depth of less than 100m. In other words the light falls to 37% of its original brightness every 100m it passes through.
If the mass is the same then gravity, tides, etc would not change.
Rock tends to be around 5 times as dense as water, so you would expect the moon to be a little larger and reflectivity is better so moonlit nights would be brighter.
The results are quite boring I'm afraid.
The surface would freeze and turn a colour similar to many of the icy moons we see on our solar system. That is normally a sort of off-white or dirty grey.
That depth of water is effectively opaque so you wouldn't see any lensing effects. (Think how dark it is at the bottom of our oceans for example, passing through our moon is much further than that). Pure water is not very opaque in the visible spectrum but even there you have a penetration depth of less than 100m. In other words the light falls to 37% of its original brightness every 100m it passes through.
If the mass is the same then gravity, tides, etc would not change.
Rock tends to be around 5 times as dense as water, so you would expect the moon to be a little larger and reflectivity is better so moonlit nights would be brighter.
edited 22 hours ago
a CVn♦
21.6k1190170
21.6k1190170
answered 2 days ago
Tim B♦
58.5k23166282
58.5k23166282
2
I wonder if there are any lensing effects right at the junction between far and near faces of the moon during an eclipse of the sun. By simple geometry there must be a ring all the way round where the thickness of ice to be traversed is negligible.
– chasly from UK
2 days ago
10
Sadly, I think Tim B's answer is going to be the correct & only answer. Think about it this way: if you draw a line from a point on the east coast of Australia, through the depths of the Ocean and out the other side & through space to the pre-dawn Sun, you can't see the Sun through the great distance of water. The world before sunrise is dark and the water is dark. Your watery moon will be the same.
– elemtilas
2 days ago
1
@chaslyfromUK Your edit looks good, and didn't invalidate anything thanks :) I had already ignored the duplicate bit and just focused on the new thing anyway
– Tim B♦
2 days ago
12
Another additional point: initially the moonlit nights would be much brighter, perhaps about a hundred times brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts.
– Nathaniel
2 days ago
1
Gas giants are opaque, too. There's just no way around this - at planetary scales, everything is opaque. Besides, the Moon is far too light to hold onto that vapor for too long.
– void_ptr
15 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
2
I wonder if there are any lensing effects right at the junction between far and near faces of the moon during an eclipse of the sun. By simple geometry there must be a ring all the way round where the thickness of ice to be traversed is negligible.
– chasly from UK
2 days ago
10
Sadly, I think Tim B's answer is going to be the correct & only answer. Think about it this way: if you draw a line from a point on the east coast of Australia, through the depths of the Ocean and out the other side & through space to the pre-dawn Sun, you can't see the Sun through the great distance of water. The world before sunrise is dark and the water is dark. Your watery moon will be the same.
– elemtilas
2 days ago
1
@chaslyfromUK Your edit looks good, and didn't invalidate anything thanks :) I had already ignored the duplicate bit and just focused on the new thing anyway
– Tim B♦
2 days ago
12
Another additional point: initially the moonlit nights would be much brighter, perhaps about a hundred times brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts.
– Nathaniel
2 days ago
1
Gas giants are opaque, too. There's just no way around this - at planetary scales, everything is opaque. Besides, the Moon is far too light to hold onto that vapor for too long.
– void_ptr
15 hours ago
2
2
I wonder if there are any lensing effects right at the junction between far and near faces of the moon during an eclipse of the sun. By simple geometry there must be a ring all the way round where the thickness of ice to be traversed is negligible.
– chasly from UK
2 days ago
I wonder if there are any lensing effects right at the junction between far and near faces of the moon during an eclipse of the sun. By simple geometry there must be a ring all the way round where the thickness of ice to be traversed is negligible.
– chasly from UK
2 days ago
10
10
Sadly, I think Tim B's answer is going to be the correct & only answer. Think about it this way: if you draw a line from a point on the east coast of Australia, through the depths of the Ocean and out the other side & through space to the pre-dawn Sun, you can't see the Sun through the great distance of water. The world before sunrise is dark and the water is dark. Your watery moon will be the same.
– elemtilas
2 days ago
Sadly, I think Tim B's answer is going to be the correct & only answer. Think about it this way: if you draw a line from a point on the east coast of Australia, through the depths of the Ocean and out the other side & through space to the pre-dawn Sun, you can't see the Sun through the great distance of water. The world before sunrise is dark and the water is dark. Your watery moon will be the same.
– elemtilas
2 days ago
1
1
@chaslyfromUK Your edit looks good, and didn't invalidate anything thanks :) I had already ignored the duplicate bit and just focused on the new thing anyway
– Tim B♦
2 days ago
@chaslyfromUK Your edit looks good, and didn't invalidate anything thanks :) I had already ignored the duplicate bit and just focused on the new thing anyway
– Tim B♦
2 days ago
12
12
Another additional point: initially the moonlit nights would be much brighter, perhaps about a hundred times brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts.
– Nathaniel
2 days ago
Another additional point: initially the moonlit nights would be much brighter, perhaps about a hundred times brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts.
– Nathaniel
2 days ago
1
1
Gas giants are opaque, too. There's just no way around this - at planetary scales, everything is opaque. Besides, the Moon is far too light to hold onto that vapor for too long.
– void_ptr
15 hours ago
Gas giants are opaque, too. There's just no way around this - at planetary scales, everything is opaque. Besides, the Moon is far too light to hold onto that vapor for too long.
– void_ptr
15 hours ago
|
show 7 more comments
up vote
72
down vote
Sorry, no spectacular death ray occurs for a number of reasons.
1. The focal point is in the wrong spot.
The mass of the moon is about 7.3 × 1022 kilograms. The density of water is 997 kg/m3. Now assuming the entire moon is liquid water (which is itself a dubious assumption), that yields a volume of water of:
$$ {7.3 times 10^{22}:mathrm {kg} over 997 :mathrm{kg/m^3} }
= 7.3 times 10^{19} :mathrm m^3 $$
Or, a sphere with a radius of 2.6 × 106 meters. (For comparison, our current Moon has a radius of 1.7 × 106 meters.)
The focal length of a ball lens is:
$$ f = {RN over 2(N-1)} $$
where $R$ is the radius, and $N$ the index of refraction. So for our water moon lens,
$$ {(2.6 times 10^{6}) 1.333 over 2(1.333 - 1) } = 5.2 times 10^6 :mathrm m$$
The Moon is about 384 × 106 meters away from Earth, so the focal point isn't anywhere near Earth's surface. At worst, we have a hazard to future lunar missions.
2. At these sizes, water is effectively opaque.
OK, so the focus in in the wrong spot, but what if we ignore that?
Pure liquid water is pretty clear at visible wavelengths, with an attenuation coefficient on the order of 10-2 m-1. That means the transmitted light is reduced by a factor of 1/e for every 100 meters of water. But compared to the size of the Moon, 100 meters is basically nothing, so very little light gets through.
Furthermore, the attenuation coefficient is much higher for ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths, where much of the solar energy is.
3. The Moon isn't big enough to make a death ray lens.
So water is effectively opaque at lunar sizes, so what if we ignore that also? What if the Moon is replaced with some kind of matter which is completely transparent, and somehow has optical properties which allow it to focus all the light from the sun on to a small area on Earth?
At first glance this would be pretty bad: about 1.3 × 1016 watts of solar power hits the Moon, and our less-dense water Moon is a little bigger, so intercepts even more power. Concentrating that power in a small area would be Really Bad.
But it's not possible to build such an optical system, no matter what kind of matter replaces the Moon, without significantly increasing the angular diameter of the Moon.
Pretend you're an ant. In the absence of any kind of lens, the angular diameter of the Sun is pretty small: 0.53°. Although the Sun is incredibly hot, most directions are the relatively cool "not Sun", and so your total energy exposure, integrated over all possible directions, is manageable.
Now some kid parks a magnifying lens over you. It's huge, covering much of the sky, with an angular diameter of maybe 90°. In almost every direction you look, you see the Sun. From your perspective, it's as if someone put about 32,000 more suns in the sky, and now the sky is mostly "Sun". Integrated over all possible directions your energy exposure is huge, and you promptly burst into flames.
The trouble is the angular diameter of the Moon-lens-death-ray isn't much bigger than the angular diameter of the Sun. The ordinary Sun and Moon have approximately the same angular diameter, and replacing the Moon with less-dense water increased the solid angle by a factor of 2.3. Certainly enough to be noticeably warmer, but not catastrophically so over the short duration of an eclipse.
It's counterintuitive but true. Try to burn an ant with any optical system which to the ant looks no bigger than the Sun. You can't do it: it would violate the conservation of etendue. (Other references: 1 2)
To present a real threat to Earth's surface, the aliens would have to increase the angular diameter of the Moon. That means one or more of:
- moving it closer
- adding more mass
- making it less dense
- making it non-spherical
3
So well written !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– Fattie
yesterday
1
nice to have all aspects of the problem in a single answer!
– szulat
yesterday
3
@chaslyfromUK This answer goes into far more detail than mine and covers things mine does not, please feel free to change the tick mark. It earned it :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
Thanks Tim B. It's a toss-up but I'l go with Occam's Razor this time and stick with you. However Phil's answer is a gem because it answers all the 'what if' questions that go along with my OP.
– chasly from UK
yesterday
2
It's OK, maybe I'll get a populist badge :)
– Phil Frost
22 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
72
down vote
Sorry, no spectacular death ray occurs for a number of reasons.
1. The focal point is in the wrong spot.
The mass of the moon is about 7.3 × 1022 kilograms. The density of water is 997 kg/m3. Now assuming the entire moon is liquid water (which is itself a dubious assumption), that yields a volume of water of:
$$ {7.3 times 10^{22}:mathrm {kg} over 997 :mathrm{kg/m^3} }
= 7.3 times 10^{19} :mathrm m^3 $$
Or, a sphere with a radius of 2.6 × 106 meters. (For comparison, our current Moon has a radius of 1.7 × 106 meters.)
The focal length of a ball lens is:
$$ f = {RN over 2(N-1)} $$
where $R$ is the radius, and $N$ the index of refraction. So for our water moon lens,
$$ {(2.6 times 10^{6}) 1.333 over 2(1.333 - 1) } = 5.2 times 10^6 :mathrm m$$
The Moon is about 384 × 106 meters away from Earth, so the focal point isn't anywhere near Earth's surface. At worst, we have a hazard to future lunar missions.
2. At these sizes, water is effectively opaque.
OK, so the focus in in the wrong spot, but what if we ignore that?
Pure liquid water is pretty clear at visible wavelengths, with an attenuation coefficient on the order of 10-2 m-1. That means the transmitted light is reduced by a factor of 1/e for every 100 meters of water. But compared to the size of the Moon, 100 meters is basically nothing, so very little light gets through.
Furthermore, the attenuation coefficient is much higher for ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths, where much of the solar energy is.
3. The Moon isn't big enough to make a death ray lens.
So water is effectively opaque at lunar sizes, so what if we ignore that also? What if the Moon is replaced with some kind of matter which is completely transparent, and somehow has optical properties which allow it to focus all the light from the sun on to a small area on Earth?
At first glance this would be pretty bad: about 1.3 × 1016 watts of solar power hits the Moon, and our less-dense water Moon is a little bigger, so intercepts even more power. Concentrating that power in a small area would be Really Bad.
But it's not possible to build such an optical system, no matter what kind of matter replaces the Moon, without significantly increasing the angular diameter of the Moon.
Pretend you're an ant. In the absence of any kind of lens, the angular diameter of the Sun is pretty small: 0.53°. Although the Sun is incredibly hot, most directions are the relatively cool "not Sun", and so your total energy exposure, integrated over all possible directions, is manageable.
Now some kid parks a magnifying lens over you. It's huge, covering much of the sky, with an angular diameter of maybe 90°. In almost every direction you look, you see the Sun. From your perspective, it's as if someone put about 32,000 more suns in the sky, and now the sky is mostly "Sun". Integrated over all possible directions your energy exposure is huge, and you promptly burst into flames.
The trouble is the angular diameter of the Moon-lens-death-ray isn't much bigger than the angular diameter of the Sun. The ordinary Sun and Moon have approximately the same angular diameter, and replacing the Moon with less-dense water increased the solid angle by a factor of 2.3. Certainly enough to be noticeably warmer, but not catastrophically so over the short duration of an eclipse.
It's counterintuitive but true. Try to burn an ant with any optical system which to the ant looks no bigger than the Sun. You can't do it: it would violate the conservation of etendue. (Other references: 1 2)
To present a real threat to Earth's surface, the aliens would have to increase the angular diameter of the Moon. That means one or more of:
- moving it closer
- adding more mass
- making it less dense
- making it non-spherical
3
So well written !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– Fattie
yesterday
1
nice to have all aspects of the problem in a single answer!
– szulat
yesterday
3
@chaslyfromUK This answer goes into far more detail than mine and covers things mine does not, please feel free to change the tick mark. It earned it :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
Thanks Tim B. It's a toss-up but I'l go with Occam's Razor this time and stick with you. However Phil's answer is a gem because it answers all the 'what if' questions that go along with my OP.
– chasly from UK
yesterday
2
It's OK, maybe I'll get a populist badge :)
– Phil Frost
22 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
72
down vote
up vote
72
down vote
Sorry, no spectacular death ray occurs for a number of reasons.
1. The focal point is in the wrong spot.
The mass of the moon is about 7.3 × 1022 kilograms. The density of water is 997 kg/m3. Now assuming the entire moon is liquid water (which is itself a dubious assumption), that yields a volume of water of:
$$ {7.3 times 10^{22}:mathrm {kg} over 997 :mathrm{kg/m^3} }
= 7.3 times 10^{19} :mathrm m^3 $$
Or, a sphere with a radius of 2.6 × 106 meters. (For comparison, our current Moon has a radius of 1.7 × 106 meters.)
The focal length of a ball lens is:
$$ f = {RN over 2(N-1)} $$
where $R$ is the radius, and $N$ the index of refraction. So for our water moon lens,
$$ {(2.6 times 10^{6}) 1.333 over 2(1.333 - 1) } = 5.2 times 10^6 :mathrm m$$
The Moon is about 384 × 106 meters away from Earth, so the focal point isn't anywhere near Earth's surface. At worst, we have a hazard to future lunar missions.
2. At these sizes, water is effectively opaque.
OK, so the focus in in the wrong spot, but what if we ignore that?
Pure liquid water is pretty clear at visible wavelengths, with an attenuation coefficient on the order of 10-2 m-1. That means the transmitted light is reduced by a factor of 1/e for every 100 meters of water. But compared to the size of the Moon, 100 meters is basically nothing, so very little light gets through.
Furthermore, the attenuation coefficient is much higher for ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths, where much of the solar energy is.
3. The Moon isn't big enough to make a death ray lens.
So water is effectively opaque at lunar sizes, so what if we ignore that also? What if the Moon is replaced with some kind of matter which is completely transparent, and somehow has optical properties which allow it to focus all the light from the sun on to a small area on Earth?
At first glance this would be pretty bad: about 1.3 × 1016 watts of solar power hits the Moon, and our less-dense water Moon is a little bigger, so intercepts even more power. Concentrating that power in a small area would be Really Bad.
But it's not possible to build such an optical system, no matter what kind of matter replaces the Moon, without significantly increasing the angular diameter of the Moon.
Pretend you're an ant. In the absence of any kind of lens, the angular diameter of the Sun is pretty small: 0.53°. Although the Sun is incredibly hot, most directions are the relatively cool "not Sun", and so your total energy exposure, integrated over all possible directions, is manageable.
Now some kid parks a magnifying lens over you. It's huge, covering much of the sky, with an angular diameter of maybe 90°. In almost every direction you look, you see the Sun. From your perspective, it's as if someone put about 32,000 more suns in the sky, and now the sky is mostly "Sun". Integrated over all possible directions your energy exposure is huge, and you promptly burst into flames.
The trouble is the angular diameter of the Moon-lens-death-ray isn't much bigger than the angular diameter of the Sun. The ordinary Sun and Moon have approximately the same angular diameter, and replacing the Moon with less-dense water increased the solid angle by a factor of 2.3. Certainly enough to be noticeably warmer, but not catastrophically so over the short duration of an eclipse.
It's counterintuitive but true. Try to burn an ant with any optical system which to the ant looks no bigger than the Sun. You can't do it: it would violate the conservation of etendue. (Other references: 1 2)
To present a real threat to Earth's surface, the aliens would have to increase the angular diameter of the Moon. That means one or more of:
- moving it closer
- adding more mass
- making it less dense
- making it non-spherical
Sorry, no spectacular death ray occurs for a number of reasons.
1. The focal point is in the wrong spot.
The mass of the moon is about 7.3 × 1022 kilograms. The density of water is 997 kg/m3. Now assuming the entire moon is liquid water (which is itself a dubious assumption), that yields a volume of water of:
$$ {7.3 times 10^{22}:mathrm {kg} over 997 :mathrm{kg/m^3} }
= 7.3 times 10^{19} :mathrm m^3 $$
Or, a sphere with a radius of 2.6 × 106 meters. (For comparison, our current Moon has a radius of 1.7 × 106 meters.)
The focal length of a ball lens is:
$$ f = {RN over 2(N-1)} $$
where $R$ is the radius, and $N$ the index of refraction. So for our water moon lens,
$$ {(2.6 times 10^{6}) 1.333 over 2(1.333 - 1) } = 5.2 times 10^6 :mathrm m$$
The Moon is about 384 × 106 meters away from Earth, so the focal point isn't anywhere near Earth's surface. At worst, we have a hazard to future lunar missions.
2. At these sizes, water is effectively opaque.
OK, so the focus in in the wrong spot, but what if we ignore that?
Pure liquid water is pretty clear at visible wavelengths, with an attenuation coefficient on the order of 10-2 m-1. That means the transmitted light is reduced by a factor of 1/e for every 100 meters of water. But compared to the size of the Moon, 100 meters is basically nothing, so very little light gets through.
Furthermore, the attenuation coefficient is much higher for ultraviolet and infrared wavelengths, where much of the solar energy is.
3. The Moon isn't big enough to make a death ray lens.
So water is effectively opaque at lunar sizes, so what if we ignore that also? What if the Moon is replaced with some kind of matter which is completely transparent, and somehow has optical properties which allow it to focus all the light from the sun on to a small area on Earth?
At first glance this would be pretty bad: about 1.3 × 1016 watts of solar power hits the Moon, and our less-dense water Moon is a little bigger, so intercepts even more power. Concentrating that power in a small area would be Really Bad.
But it's not possible to build such an optical system, no matter what kind of matter replaces the Moon, without significantly increasing the angular diameter of the Moon.
Pretend you're an ant. In the absence of any kind of lens, the angular diameter of the Sun is pretty small: 0.53°. Although the Sun is incredibly hot, most directions are the relatively cool "not Sun", and so your total energy exposure, integrated over all possible directions, is manageable.
Now some kid parks a magnifying lens over you. It's huge, covering much of the sky, with an angular diameter of maybe 90°. In almost every direction you look, you see the Sun. From your perspective, it's as if someone put about 32,000 more suns in the sky, and now the sky is mostly "Sun". Integrated over all possible directions your energy exposure is huge, and you promptly burst into flames.
The trouble is the angular diameter of the Moon-lens-death-ray isn't much bigger than the angular diameter of the Sun. The ordinary Sun and Moon have approximately the same angular diameter, and replacing the Moon with less-dense water increased the solid angle by a factor of 2.3. Certainly enough to be noticeably warmer, but not catastrophically so over the short duration of an eclipse.
It's counterintuitive but true. Try to burn an ant with any optical system which to the ant looks no bigger than the Sun. You can't do it: it would violate the conservation of etendue. (Other references: 1 2)
To present a real threat to Earth's surface, the aliens would have to increase the angular diameter of the Moon. That means one or more of:
- moving it closer
- adding more mass
- making it less dense
- making it non-spherical
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Phil Frost
1,05759
1,05759
3
So well written !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– Fattie
yesterday
1
nice to have all aspects of the problem in a single answer!
– szulat
yesterday
3
@chaslyfromUK This answer goes into far more detail than mine and covers things mine does not, please feel free to change the tick mark. It earned it :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
Thanks Tim B. It's a toss-up but I'l go with Occam's Razor this time and stick with you. However Phil's answer is a gem because it answers all the 'what if' questions that go along with my OP.
– chasly from UK
yesterday
2
It's OK, maybe I'll get a populist badge :)
– Phil Frost
22 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
3
So well written !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– Fattie
yesterday
1
nice to have all aspects of the problem in a single answer!
– szulat
yesterday
3
@chaslyfromUK This answer goes into far more detail than mine and covers things mine does not, please feel free to change the tick mark. It earned it :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
Thanks Tim B. It's a toss-up but I'l go with Occam's Razor this time and stick with you. However Phil's answer is a gem because it answers all the 'what if' questions that go along with my OP.
– chasly from UK
yesterday
2
It's OK, maybe I'll get a populist badge :)
– Phil Frost
22 hours ago
3
3
So well written !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– Fattie
yesterday
So well written !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
– Fattie
yesterday
1
1
nice to have all aspects of the problem in a single answer!
– szulat
yesterday
nice to have all aspects of the problem in a single answer!
– szulat
yesterday
3
3
@chaslyfromUK This answer goes into far more detail than mine and covers things mine does not, please feel free to change the tick mark. It earned it :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
@chaslyfromUK This answer goes into far more detail than mine and covers things mine does not, please feel free to change the tick mark. It earned it :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
1
Thanks Tim B. It's a toss-up but I'l go with Occam's Razor this time and stick with you. However Phil's answer is a gem because it answers all the 'what if' questions that go along with my OP.
– chasly from UK
yesterday
Thanks Tim B. It's a toss-up but I'l go with Occam's Razor this time and stick with you. However Phil's answer is a gem because it answers all the 'what if' questions that go along with my OP.
– chasly from UK
yesterday
2
2
It's OK, maybe I'll get a populist badge :)
– Phil Frost
22 hours ago
It's OK, maybe I'll get a populist badge :)
– Phil Frost
22 hours ago
|
show 4 more comments
up vote
15
down vote
Note: this answer incorrectly assumes the lens-moon diameter stays unchanged. As noted by Kelly Thomas, the question asks for the same mass, not diameter (so the water moon is going to be bigger because of its lower density). I'm keeping this answer anyway, because the equal moon and sun apparent diameter leads to an unexpected conclusion.
Fun science fact: even the focused sunlight would not be much more dangerous than normal sunlight!
Why? Because of the etendue
(TL;DR: the moon is small and far away)
It turns out that it is impossible to increase the surface brightness of the object using purely optical devices. Make the moon a perfect lens, not just a water sphere but finely tuned optical system focused on the Earth and passing 100% of the light without any losses and.. nothing spectacular happens.
So how come we can burn things with the magnifying glass? Isn't the focused light more powerful? Surprisingly, it is not! From the "target" perspective, we are replacing the sun with the magnifying glass. Both have the same surface brightness (very bright!) but the magnifying glass appears much bigger because it is so close, so obviously even having the same surface brightness, much more energy is delivered. But in the lens-moon scenario, the apparent sizes of the moon and sun are nearly equal. The moon-lens would at best just appear to be as bright as the sun and deliver the same amount of energy as the sun itself.
Another way to look at this apparent paradox is that no lens (not even an nonexistant idealized lens) can focus 100% of the light coming from the light source into a single point. It can focus 100% of the light coming from some location at the light source to a point, and focus another 100% coming from another location into another point, and so on. In other words, a lens creates the image of the light source and this image has some finite size, spreading the light across the area.
Now there is a little extra detail - for some configurations you might be able to see the lens-moon and the sun simultaneously and this would indeed double the energy flux. But not for a "regular" lens, where you can be in focus only when the light source is precisely behind the lens (so it is obscured and you cannot see the lens and the source at the same time).
And what if the aliens can change the apparent lens diameter, by making it more flat and less spherical, and/or by moving it closer to the Earth? Then, of course, such lens can focus more light than the sun and become very dangerous.
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
15
down vote
Note: this answer incorrectly assumes the lens-moon diameter stays unchanged. As noted by Kelly Thomas, the question asks for the same mass, not diameter (so the water moon is going to be bigger because of its lower density). I'm keeping this answer anyway, because the equal moon and sun apparent diameter leads to an unexpected conclusion.
Fun science fact: even the focused sunlight would not be much more dangerous than normal sunlight!
Why? Because of the etendue
(TL;DR: the moon is small and far away)
It turns out that it is impossible to increase the surface brightness of the object using purely optical devices. Make the moon a perfect lens, not just a water sphere but finely tuned optical system focused on the Earth and passing 100% of the light without any losses and.. nothing spectacular happens.
So how come we can burn things with the magnifying glass? Isn't the focused light more powerful? Surprisingly, it is not! From the "target" perspective, we are replacing the sun with the magnifying glass. Both have the same surface brightness (very bright!) but the magnifying glass appears much bigger because it is so close, so obviously even having the same surface brightness, much more energy is delivered. But in the lens-moon scenario, the apparent sizes of the moon and sun are nearly equal. The moon-lens would at best just appear to be as bright as the sun and deliver the same amount of energy as the sun itself.
Another way to look at this apparent paradox is that no lens (not even an nonexistant idealized lens) can focus 100% of the light coming from the light source into a single point. It can focus 100% of the light coming from some location at the light source to a point, and focus another 100% coming from another location into another point, and so on. In other words, a lens creates the image of the light source and this image has some finite size, spreading the light across the area.
Now there is a little extra detail - for some configurations you might be able to see the lens-moon and the sun simultaneously and this would indeed double the energy flux. But not for a "regular" lens, where you can be in focus only when the light source is precisely behind the lens (so it is obscured and you cannot see the lens and the source at the same time).
And what if the aliens can change the apparent lens diameter, by making it more flat and less spherical, and/or by moving it closer to the Earth? Then, of course, such lens can focus more light than the sun and become very dangerous.
1
Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
– L.Dutch♦
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
15
down vote
up vote
15
down vote
Note: this answer incorrectly assumes the lens-moon diameter stays unchanged. As noted by Kelly Thomas, the question asks for the same mass, not diameter (so the water moon is going to be bigger because of its lower density). I'm keeping this answer anyway, because the equal moon and sun apparent diameter leads to an unexpected conclusion.
Fun science fact: even the focused sunlight would not be much more dangerous than normal sunlight!
Why? Because of the etendue
(TL;DR: the moon is small and far away)
It turns out that it is impossible to increase the surface brightness of the object using purely optical devices. Make the moon a perfect lens, not just a water sphere but finely tuned optical system focused on the Earth and passing 100% of the light without any losses and.. nothing spectacular happens.
So how come we can burn things with the magnifying glass? Isn't the focused light more powerful? Surprisingly, it is not! From the "target" perspective, we are replacing the sun with the magnifying glass. Both have the same surface brightness (very bright!) but the magnifying glass appears much bigger because it is so close, so obviously even having the same surface brightness, much more energy is delivered. But in the lens-moon scenario, the apparent sizes of the moon and sun are nearly equal. The moon-lens would at best just appear to be as bright as the sun and deliver the same amount of energy as the sun itself.
Another way to look at this apparent paradox is that no lens (not even an nonexistant idealized lens) can focus 100% of the light coming from the light source into a single point. It can focus 100% of the light coming from some location at the light source to a point, and focus another 100% coming from another location into another point, and so on. In other words, a lens creates the image of the light source and this image has some finite size, spreading the light across the area.
Now there is a little extra detail - for some configurations you might be able to see the lens-moon and the sun simultaneously and this would indeed double the energy flux. But not for a "regular" lens, where you can be in focus only when the light source is precisely behind the lens (so it is obscured and you cannot see the lens and the source at the same time).
And what if the aliens can change the apparent lens diameter, by making it more flat and less spherical, and/or by moving it closer to the Earth? Then, of course, such lens can focus more light than the sun and become very dangerous.
Note: this answer incorrectly assumes the lens-moon diameter stays unchanged. As noted by Kelly Thomas, the question asks for the same mass, not diameter (so the water moon is going to be bigger because of its lower density). I'm keeping this answer anyway, because the equal moon and sun apparent diameter leads to an unexpected conclusion.
Fun science fact: even the focused sunlight would not be much more dangerous than normal sunlight!
Why? Because of the etendue
(TL;DR: the moon is small and far away)
It turns out that it is impossible to increase the surface brightness of the object using purely optical devices. Make the moon a perfect lens, not just a water sphere but finely tuned optical system focused on the Earth and passing 100% of the light without any losses and.. nothing spectacular happens.
So how come we can burn things with the magnifying glass? Isn't the focused light more powerful? Surprisingly, it is not! From the "target" perspective, we are replacing the sun with the magnifying glass. Both have the same surface brightness (very bright!) but the magnifying glass appears much bigger because it is so close, so obviously even having the same surface brightness, much more energy is delivered. But in the lens-moon scenario, the apparent sizes of the moon and sun are nearly equal. The moon-lens would at best just appear to be as bright as the sun and deliver the same amount of energy as the sun itself.
Another way to look at this apparent paradox is that no lens (not even an nonexistant idealized lens) can focus 100% of the light coming from the light source into a single point. It can focus 100% of the light coming from some location at the light source to a point, and focus another 100% coming from another location into another point, and so on. In other words, a lens creates the image of the light source and this image has some finite size, spreading the light across the area.
Now there is a little extra detail - for some configurations you might be able to see the lens-moon and the sun simultaneously and this would indeed double the energy flux. But not for a "regular" lens, where you can be in focus only when the light source is precisely behind the lens (so it is obscured and you cannot see the lens and the source at the same time).
And what if the aliens can change the apparent lens diameter, by making it more flat and less spherical, and/or by moving it closer to the Earth? Then, of course, such lens can focus more light than the sun and become very dangerous.
edited yesterday
answered 2 days ago
szulat
28716
28716
1
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up vote
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down vote
As others have said, the newly water-based moon would not refract sunlight to make any sort of lens. It's just too thick.
However, it won't turn into an ice moon, like Europa, either. Ice moons don't form within a star's goldilocks zone.
The first change that anyone will notice is the size. Using Phil's math in his answer, we get a radius of 2,600 km, compared to its current radius of 1,737 km. While it will have significantly higher volume, we care more about the visible area, which we get with a simple pi * r squared... just the area of the circle.
The moon's current visible area is 9,480,000 sq km. With a radius of 2,600 km, the visible area jumps to a spectacular 21,200,000 sq km.
So with nothing else changing, you get about a 3-fold increase in the apparent size of the moon.
Soon after being turned to water, the surface of our moon would start evaporating, because water just doesn't exist in a vacuum. It will create its own atmosphere in short order, made entirely of water vapor. This will regulate the lunar temperature... The night side of the moon will certainly freeze over, but wouldn't enter the deep-freeze that it currently does, plunging down to minus 173c. Instead, it will likely only go as far down as minus 30c.
The day side of the moon will be a different matter altogether. While the Earth has gone through a few snowball periods, it also rotates much faster than the moon does, so the sun doesn't have enough time to bear down on one section of snowball Earth. While ice does have a high albedo, so reflects the light instead of absorbing it as heat, it isn't a perfect mirror. The ice will melt, and water has a much lower albedo... The newly melted water will absorb the light greedily, and pass it on to any nearby ice in the form of heat, making a very distinct melt line that would be very obvious at the different points in the moon's phases. While the Earth was barely able to keep its snowball status with an average of 12 hours of sunlight per day, the moon has to deal with 57.5 hour long periods of daylight.
So the moon will have a vast liquid surface on its day side, with a billowing, water vapor atmosphere creating clouds like Earth has never seen. The average albedo of stratocumulus clouds is .65. We can imagine that much of the moon would be covered in these clouds.
The moon's current albedo is .12. The lux received on Earth from a full moon is about a quarter lumen per square meter. With 3 times the surface area, and 5 times the albedo, the moon will appear 15 times as bright, or about 3.75 lumens per square meter.
It certainly would not create a death ray, but the change would be very obvious, very quickly. (There will also be no more annular solar eclipses; only total eclipses... but that wasn't part of the question.)
Hmm, I'm genuinely not sure on this - I've upvoted but there is a lot of complicated stuff going on with pressure and gravity and solar wind so you could end up with anything from a frozen ice moon to a water atmosphere. Our atmosphere is mostly made up of gasses that are gas at room temperature. The boiling point of water does drop as pressure drops (until it reaches the melting point and you get sublimation) but I've no idea whether the end result would actually be a significant atmosphere or not. Maybe one for another question :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
An all water moon most definitely will not last long... Maybe as short as only a few centuries, depending on how the decrease in density affects its gravity field and how strongly the solar wind would strip its atmosphere. Once the solar wind starts stripping the atmosphere away, humans will be less worried about the moon and would be more worried about vastly increasing sea levels.
– Ghedipunk
18 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
As others have said, the newly water-based moon would not refract sunlight to make any sort of lens. It's just too thick.
However, it won't turn into an ice moon, like Europa, either. Ice moons don't form within a star's goldilocks zone.
The first change that anyone will notice is the size. Using Phil's math in his answer, we get a radius of 2,600 km, compared to its current radius of 1,737 km. While it will have significantly higher volume, we care more about the visible area, which we get with a simple pi * r squared... just the area of the circle.
The moon's current visible area is 9,480,000 sq km. With a radius of 2,600 km, the visible area jumps to a spectacular 21,200,000 sq km.
So with nothing else changing, you get about a 3-fold increase in the apparent size of the moon.
Soon after being turned to water, the surface of our moon would start evaporating, because water just doesn't exist in a vacuum. It will create its own atmosphere in short order, made entirely of water vapor. This will regulate the lunar temperature... The night side of the moon will certainly freeze over, but wouldn't enter the deep-freeze that it currently does, plunging down to minus 173c. Instead, it will likely only go as far down as minus 30c.
The day side of the moon will be a different matter altogether. While the Earth has gone through a few snowball periods, it also rotates much faster than the moon does, so the sun doesn't have enough time to bear down on one section of snowball Earth. While ice does have a high albedo, so reflects the light instead of absorbing it as heat, it isn't a perfect mirror. The ice will melt, and water has a much lower albedo... The newly melted water will absorb the light greedily, and pass it on to any nearby ice in the form of heat, making a very distinct melt line that would be very obvious at the different points in the moon's phases. While the Earth was barely able to keep its snowball status with an average of 12 hours of sunlight per day, the moon has to deal with 57.5 hour long periods of daylight.
So the moon will have a vast liquid surface on its day side, with a billowing, water vapor atmosphere creating clouds like Earth has never seen. The average albedo of stratocumulus clouds is .65. We can imagine that much of the moon would be covered in these clouds.
The moon's current albedo is .12. The lux received on Earth from a full moon is about a quarter lumen per square meter. With 3 times the surface area, and 5 times the albedo, the moon will appear 15 times as bright, or about 3.75 lumens per square meter.
It certainly would not create a death ray, but the change would be very obvious, very quickly. (There will also be no more annular solar eclipses; only total eclipses... but that wasn't part of the question.)
Hmm, I'm genuinely not sure on this - I've upvoted but there is a lot of complicated stuff going on with pressure and gravity and solar wind so you could end up with anything from a frozen ice moon to a water atmosphere. Our atmosphere is mostly made up of gasses that are gas at room temperature. The boiling point of water does drop as pressure drops (until it reaches the melting point and you get sublimation) but I've no idea whether the end result would actually be a significant atmosphere or not. Maybe one for another question :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
An all water moon most definitely will not last long... Maybe as short as only a few centuries, depending on how the decrease in density affects its gravity field and how strongly the solar wind would strip its atmosphere. Once the solar wind starts stripping the atmosphere away, humans will be less worried about the moon and would be more worried about vastly increasing sea levels.
– Ghedipunk
18 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
11
down vote
up vote
11
down vote
As others have said, the newly water-based moon would not refract sunlight to make any sort of lens. It's just too thick.
However, it won't turn into an ice moon, like Europa, either. Ice moons don't form within a star's goldilocks zone.
The first change that anyone will notice is the size. Using Phil's math in his answer, we get a radius of 2,600 km, compared to its current radius of 1,737 km. While it will have significantly higher volume, we care more about the visible area, which we get with a simple pi * r squared... just the area of the circle.
The moon's current visible area is 9,480,000 sq km. With a radius of 2,600 km, the visible area jumps to a spectacular 21,200,000 sq km.
So with nothing else changing, you get about a 3-fold increase in the apparent size of the moon.
Soon after being turned to water, the surface of our moon would start evaporating, because water just doesn't exist in a vacuum. It will create its own atmosphere in short order, made entirely of water vapor. This will regulate the lunar temperature... The night side of the moon will certainly freeze over, but wouldn't enter the deep-freeze that it currently does, plunging down to minus 173c. Instead, it will likely only go as far down as minus 30c.
The day side of the moon will be a different matter altogether. While the Earth has gone through a few snowball periods, it also rotates much faster than the moon does, so the sun doesn't have enough time to bear down on one section of snowball Earth. While ice does have a high albedo, so reflects the light instead of absorbing it as heat, it isn't a perfect mirror. The ice will melt, and water has a much lower albedo... The newly melted water will absorb the light greedily, and pass it on to any nearby ice in the form of heat, making a very distinct melt line that would be very obvious at the different points in the moon's phases. While the Earth was barely able to keep its snowball status with an average of 12 hours of sunlight per day, the moon has to deal with 57.5 hour long periods of daylight.
So the moon will have a vast liquid surface on its day side, with a billowing, water vapor atmosphere creating clouds like Earth has never seen. The average albedo of stratocumulus clouds is .65. We can imagine that much of the moon would be covered in these clouds.
The moon's current albedo is .12. The lux received on Earth from a full moon is about a quarter lumen per square meter. With 3 times the surface area, and 5 times the albedo, the moon will appear 15 times as bright, or about 3.75 lumens per square meter.
It certainly would not create a death ray, but the change would be very obvious, very quickly. (There will also be no more annular solar eclipses; only total eclipses... but that wasn't part of the question.)
As others have said, the newly water-based moon would not refract sunlight to make any sort of lens. It's just too thick.
However, it won't turn into an ice moon, like Europa, either. Ice moons don't form within a star's goldilocks zone.
The first change that anyone will notice is the size. Using Phil's math in his answer, we get a radius of 2,600 km, compared to its current radius of 1,737 km. While it will have significantly higher volume, we care more about the visible area, which we get with a simple pi * r squared... just the area of the circle.
The moon's current visible area is 9,480,000 sq km. With a radius of 2,600 km, the visible area jumps to a spectacular 21,200,000 sq km.
So with nothing else changing, you get about a 3-fold increase in the apparent size of the moon.
Soon after being turned to water, the surface of our moon would start evaporating, because water just doesn't exist in a vacuum. It will create its own atmosphere in short order, made entirely of water vapor. This will regulate the lunar temperature... The night side of the moon will certainly freeze over, but wouldn't enter the deep-freeze that it currently does, plunging down to minus 173c. Instead, it will likely only go as far down as minus 30c.
The day side of the moon will be a different matter altogether. While the Earth has gone through a few snowball periods, it also rotates much faster than the moon does, so the sun doesn't have enough time to bear down on one section of snowball Earth. While ice does have a high albedo, so reflects the light instead of absorbing it as heat, it isn't a perfect mirror. The ice will melt, and water has a much lower albedo... The newly melted water will absorb the light greedily, and pass it on to any nearby ice in the form of heat, making a very distinct melt line that would be very obvious at the different points in the moon's phases. While the Earth was barely able to keep its snowball status with an average of 12 hours of sunlight per day, the moon has to deal with 57.5 hour long periods of daylight.
So the moon will have a vast liquid surface on its day side, with a billowing, water vapor atmosphere creating clouds like Earth has never seen. The average albedo of stratocumulus clouds is .65. We can imagine that much of the moon would be covered in these clouds.
The moon's current albedo is .12. The lux received on Earth from a full moon is about a quarter lumen per square meter. With 3 times the surface area, and 5 times the albedo, the moon will appear 15 times as bright, or about 3.75 lumens per square meter.
It certainly would not create a death ray, but the change would be very obvious, very quickly. (There will also be no more annular solar eclipses; only total eclipses... but that wasn't part of the question.)
answered yesterday
Ghedipunk
1,435613
1,435613
Hmm, I'm genuinely not sure on this - I've upvoted but there is a lot of complicated stuff going on with pressure and gravity and solar wind so you could end up with anything from a frozen ice moon to a water atmosphere. Our atmosphere is mostly made up of gasses that are gas at room temperature. The boiling point of water does drop as pressure drops (until it reaches the melting point and you get sublimation) but I've no idea whether the end result would actually be a significant atmosphere or not. Maybe one for another question :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
An all water moon most definitely will not last long... Maybe as short as only a few centuries, depending on how the decrease in density affects its gravity field and how strongly the solar wind would strip its atmosphere. Once the solar wind starts stripping the atmosphere away, humans will be less worried about the moon and would be more worried about vastly increasing sea levels.
– Ghedipunk
18 hours ago
add a comment |
Hmm, I'm genuinely not sure on this - I've upvoted but there is a lot of complicated stuff going on with pressure and gravity and solar wind so you could end up with anything from a frozen ice moon to a water atmosphere. Our atmosphere is mostly made up of gasses that are gas at room temperature. The boiling point of water does drop as pressure drops (until it reaches the melting point and you get sublimation) but I've no idea whether the end result would actually be a significant atmosphere or not. Maybe one for another question :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
An all water moon most definitely will not last long... Maybe as short as only a few centuries, depending on how the decrease in density affects its gravity field and how strongly the solar wind would strip its atmosphere. Once the solar wind starts stripping the atmosphere away, humans will be less worried about the moon and would be more worried about vastly increasing sea levels.
– Ghedipunk
18 hours ago
Hmm, I'm genuinely not sure on this - I've upvoted but there is a lot of complicated stuff going on with pressure and gravity and solar wind so you could end up with anything from a frozen ice moon to a water atmosphere. Our atmosphere is mostly made up of gasses that are gas at room temperature. The boiling point of water does drop as pressure drops (until it reaches the melting point and you get sublimation) but I've no idea whether the end result would actually be a significant atmosphere or not. Maybe one for another question :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
Hmm, I'm genuinely not sure on this - I've upvoted but there is a lot of complicated stuff going on with pressure and gravity and solar wind so you could end up with anything from a frozen ice moon to a water atmosphere. Our atmosphere is mostly made up of gasses that are gas at room temperature. The boiling point of water does drop as pressure drops (until it reaches the melting point and you get sublimation) but I've no idea whether the end result would actually be a significant atmosphere or not. Maybe one for another question :)
– Tim B♦
yesterday
1
1
An all water moon most definitely will not last long... Maybe as short as only a few centuries, depending on how the decrease in density affects its gravity field and how strongly the solar wind would strip its atmosphere. Once the solar wind starts stripping the atmosphere away, humans will be less worried about the moon and would be more worried about vastly increasing sea levels.
– Ghedipunk
18 hours ago
An all water moon most definitely will not last long... Maybe as short as only a few centuries, depending on how the decrease in density affects its gravity field and how strongly the solar wind would strip its atmosphere. Once the solar wind starts stripping the atmosphere away, humans will be less worried about the moon and would be more worried about vastly increasing sea levels.
– Ghedipunk
18 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
once it's an icy moon, the albedo would increase from 0.12 to 0.8 or something, which would cause light pollution disrupting sleep cycles biosphere-wide. with the diameter increase that's 20x more light
or like Nathaniel said it, the moonlit nights would be much brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
once it's an icy moon, the albedo would increase from 0.12 to 0.8 or something, which would cause light pollution disrupting sleep cycles biosphere-wide. with the diameter increase that's 20x more light
or like Nathaniel said it, the moonlit nights would be much brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts
New contributor
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
once it's an icy moon, the albedo would increase from 0.12 to 0.8 or something, which would cause light pollution disrupting sleep cycles biosphere-wide. with the diameter increase that's 20x more light
or like Nathaniel said it, the moonlit nights would be much brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts
New contributor
once it's an icy moon, the albedo would increase from 0.12 to 0.8 or something, which would cause light pollution disrupting sleep cycles biosphere-wide. with the diameter increase that's 20x more light
or like Nathaniel said it, the moonlit nights would be much brighter. Although the Moon looks white it is actually quite dark in colour, about the colour of a tarmac road. Initially the frozen water surface would be pretty much white, just as it is on Earth, which is hugely more reflective than the current surface - it wouldn't become dirty grey until it's had millions/billions of years of micrometeorite impacts
New contributor
New contributor
answered yesterday
amara
1513
1513
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
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38
Drive by drunken god-aliens... Nice. Also: I predict you’re about to be introduced to the wonderful world of exotic ice phases.
– Joe Bloggs
2 days ago
4
I really like this idea. Although I don’t think water will work because of the freezing problems, I’d love to see a question asking about an (artificial) glass-marble-like moon that can cause these same effects.
– Dubukay
2 days ago
4
@JoeBloggs, the Moon isn't big enough. In order to pick up ice VII (the first of the exotics), you need 9*10^22 kg of water, while the Moon is only 7.3*10^22 kg. You're basically going to have a ball of water surrounded by a thin crust of ice.
– Mark
2 days ago
9
You have to admit, a moon made of water would, one way or another, look pretty amazing during an eclipse! Someone should render this. Even if not scientifically, just the fantasy version.
– Fattie
yesterday
8
It's raining moon, hallelujah, it's raining moon!
– Dawood ibn Kareem
yesterday